Reeders' Forms

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jkinnear
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Reeders' Forms

Post by jkinnear » December 7th, 2006, 6:13 pm

Let's see if we can create a list of forms from this system. If anyone knows of forms taught by GGM Reeders list them here with as much of a description as you can (I know it can be difficult).
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forms

Post by Sifu Guro Dan Donzella » December 7th, 2006, 6:14 pm

block strike and he nan. 3 separate forms. right side and left, then added together to make one.
block- basic blocks,rising,outward,inward,downward. dbl.rising,dbl. elbow, dbl. downward. circle blocks. (same foot and hand movements)

strike form- reverse punch,down chop,in chop,out chop, ridge to groin,spear, palm up punch,elbow. ( opp. foot and hand )

he nan- long and short strikes stepping in 3's.

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Post by kungfujoe » December 7th, 2006, 6:15 pm

- Saolin (Shaolin)
- - Saolin with double machete
- Four Direction
- Lion Movement (perhaps taught as a "four point exercise"?)
- Staff form (does it have a name?)
- Knife form (does it have a name?)
- Titjiu form (very few people seem to know this one; I've never seen it)
- Monkey Form (Mr. Joe has taught the part he knows at some seminars)
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Reeders Kun Tao Forms

Post by vmijjg91 » December 7th, 2006, 6:15 pm

Based on the lineage and history passed on to me regarding GGM Reeders forms, Robert Servidio is the single individual whom learned all the Kun Tao forms from GGM Reeders.

This is post is not meant to challenge anyones knowledge of forms or to discredit their training. It is meant to provide further insight into the lineage, traditions and history passed on from GGM Reeders to GM Servidio to Master Young and finally to me.

With Respect,

Joe Gionti

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Re: Reeders Kun Tao Forms

Post by kungfujoe » December 7th, 2006, 6:16 pm

vmijjg91 wrote:Based on the lineage and history passed on to me regarding GGM Reeders forms, Robert Servidio is the single individual whom learned all the Kun Tao forms from GGM Reeders.

This is post is not meant to challenge anyones knowledge of forms or to discredit their training. It is meant to provide further insight into the lineage, traditions and history passed on from GGM Reeders to GM Servidio to Master Young and finally to me.
Joe,

I apologize in advance for the toes I step on with this "rant," but this has always been something I see as a problem, and not one that I often see addressed.

Absolutely no disrespect is intended here, but whether or not your intent is to challenge anyone's knowledge, that is the appearance/effect of repeatedly saying things like this (I say "repeatedly" because this is not nearly the first time that statements similar to this one have appeared on this forum and other forums). One of the "problems" within our family of arts is that it seems that nearly everyone who learned directly from GGM Reeders "got the real deal" and everyone else "got something inferior." (You didn't state the second part, but that second part is a common inference, and sometimes, especially in discussions of smaller groups, not just an inference). And everyone who says this gets it directly from their lineage - that is, it's all based on the guy on top saying "I learned it all, and I'm the only one who did." That is, there's no truly independent verification, and the students never stop and think "gee, maybe GGM Reeders actually did teach multiple people a complete system." I'm not singling out Master Servidio; he's not nearly the only one making these claims within our art (or other arts), and the same claims circulate about Reeders' direct students ("Reeders Student X only taught his Student Y the whole curriculum, and everyone else who learned from Reeders Student X has an inferior version"). Who do these claims serve? Thinking differently about it, who do they hurt? I submit that they hurt all of us. To claim or infer that Reeders taught someone "the real deal" and then duped everyone else into learning something inferior seems to be an insult to GGM Reeders himself, by saying that he sabotaged his own legacy by producing a plethora of students who all learned "substandard stuff." I'm sure that isn't your intent when making these claims, but give some thought to how they appear to an outside observer. Generally speaking, we tread pretty lightly around these topics within our own "family," but I've seen the results of someone going into a group of experienced martial artists from other systems and making the same claims that are commonly made within the "family." Simply, the result was that the person in question was essentially "laughed out of the room." He was seen as a joke, and by extension, our system was seen as a joke. I pretty much had to apologize for the guy after he was shamed into leaving, and explain that not everyone from our system shares his attitude, and that he put forth his opinions poorly, and portrayed himself as someone very different from who he is in person. It was a pretty awkward position to be in, to say the least.

Finally, a number of the forms quoted thus far aren't "Kun Tao forms." It's likely that Master Servidio never learned them, nor did any of the other Kun Tao students (just as the Chuan Fa students didn't learn the Kun Tao forms, the Poekoelan Tjikalong students learned a separate set of forms not present in the Kun Tao or the Chuan Fa, and then there's the Tibetan Tai Chi that no one outside of Marilyn's school seems to be overly familiar with, at least as far as I've seen). Since the topic isn't "Reeders' Kun Tao Forms," but "Reeders' Forms," your statement seems less than relevant, and one has to question the motives of making the statement. It would be quite a different matter if you had said "I believe Bob Servidio was the only one to learn all of the Kun Tao forms, which are named below."

Simply, when someone says "let's compile a list of the forms that Reeders taught," and your response is "My teacher's teacher was the only one to learn the full Kun Tao curriculum," without actually offering even a partial answer to the question, how do you think that appears to everyone else, regardless of how you intended it (not) to be taken, or what disclaimers you offered about how you intended it (not) to be taken? This forum is a gesture to welcome cooperation and brotherhood (sisterhood) within the Reeders family of arts. Statements that are bound to be divisive simply aren't productive in such an environment. All of GGM Reeders' students learned something a bit different. We all have a unique piece of a great puzzle, or a shard of a broken mirror, if you will. Instead of saying "my piece is the best!" we might be better served (for the benefit of ourselves and each other) to try to determine how the pieces fit together. We might get a better appreciation for the beauty of the completed puzzle, or the whole mirror.
Erik Harris
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Dragging his tail to cover his tracks" -dTb

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Post by vmijjg91 » December 7th, 2006, 6:16 pm

Eric,

I understand your statements. I do not nor does my Reeders affiliated school desire to do anything that would disrespect or disparage anyones legacy from GGM Reeders. Our school has stayed mainly out of the forums or controversy that came about after GGM Reeders passing. Our school has been in existance for quite sometime and has tried to pass on as true as possible the teachings of GGM Reeders.

As this link is for the forms I will not go on any further oher than to say our school welcomes anyone who had the privilege to study from GGM Reeders to share stories and techniques.

Respectfully,

Joe Gionti

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Post by Sifu Guro Dan Donzella » December 7th, 2006, 6:17 pm

I agree with Eriks post.
I would pass on any info I have, forms or tech. to any martial artist who came from the Reeders lineage. I have talked to Scott young and he seems like a great guy, my friend and student Randy Elliott who
studied under Tiny Sealy met a brick wall when he asked about exchanging forms with the group from servideo's school. Of all the Reeders students I have met Tiny Sealy is the scariest,his student randy is the same. Was it protecting the rice bowl ,or disrespect?
NOBODY has the complete system. Not until the walls are broken and the sharing begins. it may not be while I am alive,but maybe the 3rd or 4th generation will be open to exchanging what they have and finally put the puzzle together.
Thats why I bypassed the Reeders "people" and studied under others who had what Reeders studied.

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Those Welcome

Post by vmijjg91 » December 7th, 2006, 6:18 pm

ktk,

That is not at all what I am saying. Anyone is welcome at our school, we have had many visitors and students from various schools throughout the country.

Joe

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forms /juru's

Post by Sifu Guro Dan Donzella » December 7th, 2006, 6:18 pm

I first met sifu Elliott in the early 80's,he was working for a sport magazine and interviewed me. As I began to tell him about the system he jumped in and said he was from the same lineage. Elliott called Tiny that night and told him about meeting me and Tiny said for him to call me and learn the forms. Tiny never had the time to study the forms from Reeders. These would of been before the chuan-fa forms curriculum. (early 60's). Elliott got his orange sash from me, I sent all the forms on vhs to Tiny. He sent them to Sikes, GM Sikes showed them to Salomone and told him to learn them. When I first met Joe 20 years later I got this story from him. That vhs traveled many miles. I first met GM Sikes in Toronto in 1976, he didn't know the Kwitang form. GM Sikes asked Galvin to show him it and it was passed on. Sifu George has been working hard to collect the knowledge of the system, from Salomone, Galvin, ,Bradigan and others. I commend his efforts. See my point!!!
We have the 4 point form in the chuan-fa, there is a 5,6 and 7 point I have heard. Anyone else have these besides the Meadville school??

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liu seong family

Post by Sifu Guro Dan Donzella » December 7th, 2006, 6:19 pm

Greetings all, I just got off the phone with Scott Young. It was all a misunderstanding, e-mails are a great invention but it doesn't come accross like actually talking to someone. Scott,Servideo and I plan on meeting after christmas in Pa. The doors are open between us all.

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Post by suchi hati » December 7th, 2006, 6:19 pm

Greetings, This site is a great idea. My lineage as follows : Grand Master Servidio to me. Master Young also spent countless hours teaching me over the years . The forms as I was taught are as follows: 3,4 6, 8, 12, 24, Jurus puku, Jurus slewan,kumbang{ kata Kune Tao) taiso, sword hand 4 directions,toya forms, taichu forms, belati form , huc chung,huc ching, 3/4, 3/4 monkey, Tibetan tai chi, large tiger, small tiger, Liu Siong universal diagram, opening.


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Re: forms /juru's

Post by kungfujoe » December 7th, 2006, 6:20 pm

Sifu Guro Dan Donzella wrote:We have the 4 point form in the chuan-fa, there is a 5,6 and 7 point I have heard. Anyone else have these besides the Meadville school??

We have a 4 point form that differs from yours (I believe what you call 4 Point, we call "Four Direction" - to avoid too much confusion, though between Four Point, Four Direction, and Four Corners, there's still plenty of room for confusion). We also have 6, 5, and 3 point forms (in that order). I'm not sure exactly where they come from. Sifu George has theories, but as far as I know, no "legitimate" lineage for these forms has been verified, and they may or may not come from Reeders. And if they do, our version likely differs considerably from the "original" versions because of the path that Sifu George's training has taken in the last decade or so.
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Post by The Red Ant » January 3rd, 2007, 2:12 am

I have to relate a great story told to me by my teacher Tiny Sealy about Reeder's forms or katas. Tiny told me when Reeders had a small school in Jamestown they were training when some big franchised martial arts school owner came into to talk to Reeders. This man stated he heard Reeders knew quite a bit and wanted to learn some forms from Reeders. I guess this man was very disrespectful and demanded Bill show him something while offering to pay him for it...Reeders told the man: "the only thing I show you is the floor." lol, needless to say the man went back to his schools without learning a single thing from Reeders (other than a lesson in humility). I just thought I would pass this along.

Having known Tiny most of my life since I was 13 or so, I never learned a single form of Reeders. I know Randy Elliott (another one of Tiny's students) has gained more insight in this regards. As mentioned by Sifu D., Tiny never had the time to learn the forms...he was working three jobs to support his family and didn't get to learn them. In addition, Tiny has always told me Bob Servidio knew quite a bit of the forms and was probably the most knowledgeable in that regard. That doesn't mean to say others don't have or possess a "piece of the puzzle" so to speak. One thing many seem to forget it this about Kun Tao--it is very eclectic and draws from many sources, but more importantly, Kun Tao is really developing the art from within...a personal approach to finding or adding what you see the system as. For example: Reeders has given us all the words, but it is up to each individual as to decide what they should write! In essence, we each draw something from within ourselves to try to achieve what the system is all about. While we may be "horses from the same stable," we all posses our own identities which is unique in the martial arts. My best to you all.

Brian Barone
"Pain is the best instructor, but nobody wants him for a teacher." Author Unknown

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